In this episode of Conners Clinic Live, Dr. Kevin Conners interviews Dr. Eric D. Gordon, a specialist in complex chronic illnesses. Dr. Gordon discusses his practice in San Rafael, California, and the unique approaches they use to treat patients with persistent health issues. The conversation covers the limitations of conventional medicine, especially for chronic conditions that don’t respond to quick fixes, and emphasizes the importance of understanding the body’s healing cycle.

Dr. Gordon explains how chronic illnesses often result from the body’s incomplete healing processes, leading to prolonged inflammation and mitochondrial dysfunction. He highlights the role of environmental factors, diet, and stress in exacerbating these conditions. Dr. Gordon also shares insights from Dr. Robert Naviaux’s work on the healing cycle and mitochondria’s role in energy production and immune response.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Conners and Dr. Gordon discuss the need for a holistic and individualized approach to medicine, considering factors like genetics, diet, and lifestyle. They stress the importance of removing irritants like toxins and mold and supporting the body’s natural healing processes. The episode closes with Dr. Gordon providing contact information for his practice and emphasizing the collaborative nature of their work with patients and other healthcare providers.

Tune in to learn:

  • Dr. Eric D. Gordon’s Practice: Information on his medical practice in San Rafael, California, and how to contact his clinic.
  • Conventional Medicine Limitations: The challenges and shortcomings of traditional medical approaches for chronic illnesses.
  • Chronic Illness Treatment: Insights into treating chronic conditions that don’t respond to quick fixes.
  • Healing Cycle: Understanding the body’s healing cycle and how chronic illnesses can disrupt this process.
  • Mitochondrial Function: The role of mitochondria in energy production and immune response, and how mitochondrial dysfunction can contribute to chronic illness.
  • Environmental Factors: The impact of mold, mycotoxins, and other environmental irritants on health.
  • Diet and Health: The importance of diet in managing chronic illness and how certain foods, like those high in fructose, can affect the liver and overall health.
  • Stress and Healing: The relationship between stress, social support, and the body’s ability to heal.
  • Holistic Approach: The benefits of a holistic and individualized approach to medicine, considering genetics, lifestyle, and environmental factors.
  • Collaborative Care: How Dr. Gordon’s practice collaborates with other healthcare providers and utilizes telemedicine to treat patients worldwide.
  • Patient Empowerment: Encouragement for patients to be proactive in their health care, including using resources like Google wisely and consulting with experienced practitioners.

About Eric D. Gordon, M.D. – Medical Director, Gordon Medical Associates


With over 40 years of clinical practice, Dr. Eric D. Gordon is a pioneer in treating complex chronic illnesses at Gordon Medical Associates. He has spearheaded clinical research and symposia, bringing together leading international medical researchers and cutting-edge clinicians to focus on conditions such as ME/CFS, Lyme disease, autoimmune diseases, and autism. Collaborating with renowned researcher Dr. Robert Naviaux, Dr. Gordon co-authored the groundbreaking study, “Metabolic Features of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome,” published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science (PNAS).

Dr. Gordon’s approach is rooted in his deep respect for the individuality of his patients. He emphasizes listening carefully to each patient and correlating their experiences with objective laboratory tests. This method allows him to create unique treatment plans that harness the body’s innate wisdom to overcome illness and restore health.

Listen to or Watch the Full Podcast Episode

Mitochondria’s Role in Chronic Disease and Recovery w/ Dr. Eric D. Gordon | Conners Clinic Live #50


Dr. Kevin Conners

Hello, everybody. This is Dr. Kevin Conners. Welcome to another episode of Conners Clinic Live. Today, I have Dr. Eric Gordon on with me. He interviewed me on a summit a while back, and we hit it off, and I thought it’d be great to have him on and explain what he does in his practice. Let’s jump right into this.

Doctor, tell us where you practice and how people could get a hold of you. Give us that to begin with, and then we’ll get into some discussion.

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Yeah. Our office is in San Rafael, California, just north of San Francisco. We have a website, and if anybody’s interested, there’s a little thing that says “info” – just a little button to press. They can get a chance to talk to some of my staff, and we’ll explain to them how we work, because we’ll talk a little bit about that, but it’s a little bit different than the average practice.

Medicine has evolved, or I should say it hasn’t really evolved much.

Dr. Kevin Conners

Medicine has devolved.

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Devolved. Because in the old days, how most people practice medicine is: you come in and you tell your story and you say the right word and the doctor goes: Oh, okay, you have arthritis, you have hypertension, you have diabetes, you have back pain. Then they have their three or four treatments, and that’s not the best way to do medicine, but it works for acute problems. That’s how medicine has developed is acute illness, injury. It does a great job for acute injuries. As we all know, in modern medicine, if you have a broken leg, a heart attack, God forbid, a car accident, we can do miracles at keeping you alive. But most of the people that I know that go to see you and come to see me are people who have problems that have lasted a little longer, they have been going on for quite a while. Those problems are not as amenable to the quick fix. Here, take this and cover up the symptoms, make the symptoms tolerable for a few weeks until the body can recover. Because that’s really what the trick is, is that most things do get better by themselves within six weeks to three months. The body can heal, and we depend on that in medicine. Most of our treatments are bandaid treatments that just allow the system to get enough time to actually finish the healing process, because the healing process isn’t always so comfortable. When your body is trying to kill something, it creates inflammation and that is not a comfortable state to be in. When you have chronic illness, the system isn’t able to finish the job. The healing hasn’t happened.

Conventional medicine depends on what my patron saint, Dr. Robert Naviaux, who has – his teachings have let me understand what I do better and has helped me change what I do for my patients, because what he talks about is the healing cycle and how the body has to go through the process to heal. Often what happens in chronic illness is that the healing process gets stuck and it doesn’t finish the cycle. So you begin to have an inflammatory response because you had a viral infection. Your body creates a lot of inflammation, a lot of reactive oxygen species to help kill the virus, and to help not only kill the virus, but not let the virus use a lot of your own resources. So you kind of turn down your system. That’s why you get fatigued. When we get sick, that fatigue that we get is a part of the body’s healing response. It’s a fine thing to happen for a few days, but when it lasts for months, it’s no longer a process that we want to stay in, and we have to move out of it. For a long time, the medicine that you and I practice, we kept thinking that if we could just give more nutrition, more nutrients, more vitamins, more antioxidants, the mitochondria that are now not making enough energy will turn back on and make more energy.

That’s how a lot of us started off, with giving people CoQ10 and supplements that support energy production. That works when people are well. You supplement the system and you maybe give somebody a nutrient that they’re a little low in. But what Dr. Naviaux’s work has taught me is that when you’re really trying to fight an infection or trying to deal with a toxin, the mitochondria actually have turned themselves off, or slowed down. So part of the process is for those mitochondria to stop making energy as efficiently as they did when you’re healthy. That’s a fine thing to do if it’s transient, if it lasts for a few days, a week, two weeks, but we wind up having chronic illness when that doesn’t go away. At that point, giving more nutrients doesn’t always help. I think you’ve seen that, I’m sure, in your practice when people come in with the shopping bags full of of supplements.

Dr. Kevin Conners

That’s right. People can become addicted to that approach and not really dig in deeper to find causes. That could be a huge issue.

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Right. But even when we find the cause, we still have to get the body to realize the war is over and to help it find its way back. In our current world, the diets that we have, obviously, I know you do a lot of work with that. That’s the first thing we all think about is getting people to a more healthy diet. I think most of us have discovered that it’s the modern American diet that is probably one of the underlying causes of why people are staying ill. Just changing your diet, unfortunately, doesn’t get most of us back to health. It’s a necessary step, but it’s often not sufficient. There has to be multiple other levels being attended to at the same time. That’s where the understanding of treating chronic disease gets so complicated.

Dr. Kevin Conners

Could you take us through if you have a step approach to people that you would look at that came to you with a chronic disorder, chronic symptoms?

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Yeah. Well, this step approach is always look at what’s on top. The bottom level is just to make sure that we’re not feeding and we’re not making the situation worse. So that’s to look at what’s the big irritant. In this day and age, a lot of people are concerned with mold and mycotoxins. That seems to be a big thing, and it IS for a lot of people. This is where the looking at it from multiple perspectives is – so when you have a person who comes in and has been sick for a few years or sometimes decades. You can see as you listen to their story that perhaps there was an infection along the way. Many times it can be a chronic infection. People have had mono or Epstein-Barr earlier in life and maybe never fully recovered, or maybe they had it, they were sick for a lot longer than we’d like to see them sick, but they recovered. And then a few years later, they had some big stresses in life and again had a little dip in energy. Then maybe they traveled and picked up some parasites that their body wasn’t used to. A lot of the people that I see have had episodes of tick-borne disease along the way.

Each one of these things in itself can sometimes cause chronic illness, but usually they’re always there. Then their body becomes less able to deal with the exposures that are normal, like mycotoxins, for instance. Mold, we co-evolved with molds. It’s always been part of the environment. Most people can deal with them. That’s what makes life so frustrating for patients is that they’ll be living in the same household, and maybe they’re the only ones who are really sick. Maybe the other people in the house, maybe they get a little stuffy nose or a little headache now and then, but one person is just not able to function.

Dr. Kevin Conners

That is hard for a lot of people to understand that if mold is my issue, why isn’t everybody else in my house sick? You have to explain that well, that might just be your trigger. Other people in your household don’t have the same underlying issues. Therefore, the exposure to mycotoxins is not a trigger to them. It’s not necessarily healthy, but it’s not triggering an underlying disorder.

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Right. We’re able to compensate for most of these things. Because as I said, we evolved with bacteria and viruses and molds. We got here altogether, and we often can live quite happily with all these things. This is where the individuality comes through. It’s so important, in some people, it is a particular maybe genetic weakness, and not even a weakness, just something that in one environment is helpful for survival, but in another environment isn’t. We see this, I mean, just thinking of a lot of the problems with methylation. There are people who some of the methylation SNPs actually might be protective if you’re exposed to malaria, but if you’re not, and you have these same SNPs, they can cause problems because your body hasn’t developed the ability to compensate. So when you have mycotoxins, for instance, we know we have to remove you from that environment because if you keep having constant exposure, your body is going to keep reacting. But even after you get out of the exposure, we have to help your body detox. The pattern is really the same. Detox, removing the irritants are always important, but then we have to go back into what’s different about your body, what your needs are, what’s special about your biochemistry and your genetics that has made the environment now unsafe for you.

So it’s like pickup sticks. We know the basics, which is we have to remove the overt toxin. So if you’re eating bad food, if you’re somebody who starts the day off with a hefty glass of orange juice and then are eating a lot of high sugar foods throughout the day, there’s a good chance that you are going to be stressing your liver all the time and actually turning off your mitochondria because… I have to say, I’m digressing a little bit.

One of the areas that has caught my attention for the last few years a lot is the effect of fructose on metabolism and how it can slow down our mitochondria and make it more inefficient and eventually help us develop a fatty liver, which makes the liver less able to detox. Fructose is so ubiquitous in our diet. Anybody who is eating processed food just has such a high level of fructose intake that it just inhibits your liver’s ability to deal with the rest of the stuff that you have to deal with.

The thing I like about this issue of fructose is I think it’s a good way for people to understand that things that make us sick are not always bad. How our body deals with fructose is evolutionary designed to help us survive famine. When you eat a lot of fructose, it gives the signal to store fat, and fat is your survival tool for famine. If you don’t have fat, if you don’t have a reasonable store of fat, you’re not going to survive if there’s no food for a few weeks. But unfortunately, in our current environment, where maybe we have a famine for healthy food, but people who are eating out of 711s, they’re not starving, but they are hurting themselves constantly. In the old days, if fructose was high in the summer and early fall, and you could really put on an extra 10, 20 pounds, and then you’ll survive the winters. For those people whose genetics are from the northern climate, this is especially important. But we weren’t designed – nobody drank juice, they ate fruit, and if you eat fruit, you’re not getting that fructose load all at once. It gets absorbed slowly. A lot of it gets metabolized in your intestine and it doesn’t cause this problem in the liver, where high amounts of fructose in the liver actually will turn off your mitochondria, will make the mitochondria not make as much ATP, and will get your body to start storing fat, which is a very useful thing to do if you’re preparing for a famine. Unfortunately, when you’re living in America, that just gets you to retain, to get heavier and set yourself up for chronic illness. Most of the chronic illnesses, at least in my practice, I tend to deal with the chronic illnesses of infections. The chronic illnesses that many people have, such as diabetes and hypertension and coronary artery disease and even cancers, are probably triggered by the accumulation of fat in the liver and in the body, and slowing down your liver detox abilities because your liver just has less energy.

Again, this should be a transient effect, but it’s something, if you’re eating the typical American diet, you’re going to be having all the time. So I think step one is when I see people is we want to clean up the diet. Now, most of the patients I’ve seen have been on have fairly decent diets. They’re not eating the standard American diet. They’re eating fairly healthily, but we do have to watch it because a lot of people like their morning smoothies. Green juice is probably not an issue, but when they’re throwing bananas and fruit in there, I think they get too much fructose right off the bat, and that will affect the liver. I guess I keep talking about the liver because the poor liver, it gets overworked. When your liver isn’t happy, anytime your gut isn’t happy, your brain is going to go. I mean, that is what we see. So much of the brain fog that we see in people is related to toxins from the diet and from the abnormal gut flora, which develops from eating not enough of healthy foods. We have this gut that’s inflamed, that gets a little leaky, and allows too many toxins to get into the liver. The liver then has to deal with them. If the liver is fatty and is not dealing well with them, then your brain has to deal with them, and then you feel worse. This is one of those things that is the basis, I’d like to think.

The question that’s always hard is, what’s the right diet for the individual? That’s what makes it hard is there are people who do great on like a carnivore diet now, which is a big thing, or like the keto type diets. But there are some people who don’t do well with those. Especially when you’re already chronically ill, you’ll find that there are people whose bodies almost are glucose dependent, or sugar dependent. They don’t feel well. I mean, if they try to eat a high protein diet or a high fat diet, they’re even more fatigued. They really need a little sugar. The reason is because their mitochondria have been damaged. I shouldn’t say damaged because that’s not the right word. Their mitochondria have changed. I think that’s the most important teaching of Dr. Naviaux is that rarely do people with chronic illness have a damaged mitochondria. They just have a mitochondria that are now in a state that they’re no longer really using their electron transport chain.

Dr. Kevin Conners

Do you have a way to test for this? Do you test patients or do you mainly just suggest, based upon their history, trying different diets to see what works best for them?

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Well, there are some tests, but one of the simple tests is to look at the pyruvate and lactate. If your lactate is a lactic acid is high relative to your pyruvate, well, your mitochondria are not burning sugar, are not burning… Excuse me, are not able to process protein and fat as well as they should. Because at that point, the mitochondria are turned down. The reason the lactic acid high is because most of your metabolism is happening inside the cell, not in the mitochondria. The mitochondria inside your cell. So you’re just burning glucose. When you make pyruvate, that has to be moved into the… It goes to the acetyl co-A and gets moved into the mitochondria where it’s used in the electron transport chain. But if that doesn’t happen, if the mitochondria aren’t accepting that, you wind up just burning glucose and making lactate. That works. It’s what our body does in an emergency, and it’s a very efficient source of energy, but it’s not something that allows you to rebuild your tissues well. It allows you to survive.

When you look at a person, I think people will just tell you: I try to eat healthy, but I’m more and more tired. The only thing that makes me feel a little alive for a minute is if I have some carbs, and then I can at least get a few hours of feeling a little better, and then I crash. Those people we know are stuck in a state of chronic inflammation.

Let me explain this a little bit. I’ll try to make it very simple. So your mitochondria have three different forms, actually. So when you’re functioning well and in good energy, your mitochondria are strung together, tail to tail. They often have little filaments. They’re hundreds of mitochondria strung together. In that form, they’re burning protein and fat, and they’re making ATP. They’re using your electron transport chain. They’re making ATP really well. That’s when everything is working well, that’s the normal, we call that the M2 form. But let’s say you have an acute event in your body, you have an injury or an infection. When that cell that is sensing the danger, the mitochondria in that cell initially will turn down that electron transport chain, so then the cell has to just burn the glucose and it wants it to be going into a lactic acid. The mitochondria take ATP and put it on the cell’s surface as a signaling molecule. It signals danger. It signals attention. How much it puts out tells you how big of a problem it is. A few more molecules of ATP on the surface just says: attention, there’s something happening here. A lot says that the cell has got a real problem, like there’s a virus or there’s a bacteria. Something is in here and it’s using up our resources, and we’re going to fight it by increasing oxidative stress in the cell. Normally the mitochondria uses up your oxygen. That’s the part of the cell that uses oxygen to make water right after you make ATP. So we actually make water inside your body.

In fact, I think that’s one of the reasons that people who are chronically ill often are chronically dehydrated. They just feel like they don’t have enough water. They’re always drinking, but it’s not helping them. It’s because they’re not making water inside the cell where you really need it.

So anyways, but this is the first step. This is the M1 form of mitochondria, where those long strings of mitochondria have broken apart, and they’re now like individual mitochondria. They’re not hanging together in chains. When they’re doing that, they are not making a lot of ATP at that point. Now, luckily, this should be transient. This should last hours to a day or two, then they begin to make more ATP, but they’re still not making as much as they used to because this is the time when your cell is healing. In the third step, the mitochondria go back to the normal form and the cell heals and the cell membrane is restored to normal and you have really good communication.

In chronically ill people, we see parts of their body can be stuck in each one of these places. Sometimes you have parts of your body that are stuck in chronic… that first step where there’s just inflammation. So at that point, your mitochondria are not making a lot of ATP for energy. They’re not making a lot of water. They’re not using up the oxygen, and you have a lot of reactive oxygen species, reactive oxygen chemicals in the cell. That should give the cell the signal to start making lots of antioxidants and turn this whole thing down, because it’s cycles. When we’re normally repairing ourselves, this cycle happens very quickly. So you go to sleep at night and you’ll turn on this system. If you have a cell that’s a little not so healthy, you’ll turn on this system and it’ll stress the cell and it’ll try to heal. The cell will either die or heal, and it’ll be fine. You’ll wake up in the morning, you’ll have healthy new cells, or you’ll have gotten rid of some bad ones. When you have a chronic infection, you’re having some of your cells… that’s the thing, this is if it happened only in some of the body at one time, if it happened in your whole body at once, you would be severely ill and be in the hospital. When it’s happening only a small fraction of cells, it can just make you feel not as energetic as you should be.

Here you are with these three stages. That first stage is the acute stage when you’re trying to kill something or really not let a toxin get into the whole body. Your cell is trying to detoxify it right there. Okay, that’s step one. Step two is when the cell is now repairing. Step three is when it finishes the repair and it starts communicating normally with these cells around it. You can have cells in your liver or in any organ that are stuck in any one of these phases. We all do, and that’s what aging is probably, is we accumulate more and more cells that are stuck in these various stages. So the question is, how do we get out of this? We have to let the body know that it’s safe to heal, and we do that by healthy lifestyles, which is the tricky part, because when you’re sick, it’s hard to have that healthy lifestyle, because when you’re sick, you’re often not able to get that good sleep that you need. You need sleep, you need sunlight, and you need the other part – because we are such social animals, we tend to need human interaction.

It’s these meta-signals that help let the individual cells know that it’s the right time to heal, to be able to complete healing. I think I have to unpack that. That was a whole lot of ideas, but I’m feeling that it might be overwhelming.

Dr. Kevin Conners

Well, and that’s okay. I think it’s good for people to be overwhelmed sometimes so that they can chew on that thought process, because you’re used to going to a doctor that is very systematic and looking for a disease, looking to label a person. This is what your problem is, it’s this diagnosis, and slap that label on a person. That can just be dangerous because everything you’re talking about, I think you add in stress levels that cause issues as well. Getting a diagnosis and becoming a victim of a disease can lead to overwhelming stress and being stuck that mitochondrial M1 state, too. It is cyclical, and I think you eluded to that, that you do have to just disconnect from your current lifestyle that has led you to where you are and then really reassess everything as best you possibly can, and get back to the way God created us to be as best we possibly can. But It’s a process, right?

Dr. Eric D Gordon

It’s a process, yeah. I think what you mentioned … Because the way we practice medicine is to label it, give it a name, and then there’s an ABC treatment. I started out many years ago, initially, I was treating low thyroids, and we did a lot of work with heavy metal toxicity. Then it was, in the old days, we did a lot of candida and then EBV, Epstein-Barr virus and cytomegalovirus and all these viruses, and then Lyme disease, and then from Lyme, everybody started to treat Bartonella, actually, and Babesia, and each one of these bugs, and it became the illness du jour thing. These are all real, and when we treat them, people do get better. It’s just that many times people have all of these things because it’s not just treat the Lyme and you’re better. You have to unpack the levels. You have to give the body a chance to find its way back to normal, and most importantly, as you were saying, it’s stress and love.

I mean, because it’s funny because the final signal to heal comes from here. These initial mitochondrial responses are very local. Wherever the bug or injury was, do we have this local response, where your mitochondria have to go through these three phases. But in order for that cell, after it’s been injured, to become part of a whole again, to respond well to the hormones, that comes from the brain. That comes from vagal signaling and a multitude of other neurotropic factors that let the body know that it’s safe to complete the healing.

I think that’s where stress comes in, and that’s where support comes in. What’s so tragic about these modern illnesses, when somebody, God forbid, has a cancer, I know you do a lot of work with that, there’s usually a lot of support in the family for the patient with a disease that is well understood, or at least well diagnosed. When you got the X ray, you got the picture, there’s a lot of family and social support. But when you have the illnesses that I tend to see, that’s often lacking because their basic blood count, their CBCs and their metabolic panels, their liver functions and their kidney functions, on the regular test are often normal because those tests are designed for being abnormal when you’re near death or when things are really acutely out of balance.

You’re not going to live long if your sodium is 110. But your sodium at 130, you’re going to live, you just might not feel well. You don’t get a lot of respect if you don’t feel well and your blood tests are basically normal, at least the ones that conventional doctors look at. That is a great impediment to healing because often you get isolated. Even in your own family, people love you, but they wonder, are you really that sick? That is very, very, very hard. I think that’s one of the messages that I would… It’s hard to say until people either experience an illness where they have normal numbers and they really feel terrible, or they actually will… There’s enough testing that we have now that’s more subtle that can show imbalances in cytokines, in some of the inflammatory chemicals that the body makes, and when we look at the measurements, what we call the innate immune system, we can then show that these people who have otherwise normal numbers are, in fact, ill. But conventional doctors aren’t trained to look at these things.

Dr. Kevin Conners

No. Well, you’ve touched on a lot of things here, dealing with people with chronic disease, so many that have been told that they’re crazy, that they just need to get on an anti-anxiety, and how many people are on some drug like that that are not really dealing with some of the issues that you talked about.

I guess this is a good time to close. A lot of things to think about. Give me that contact again, how people could get a hold of you.

Dr. Eric D Gordon

It’s just You’ll see that you can just press the button for a discovery call, and that gives you a chance to talk to one of our staff who can explain how we work a little bit and what we do.

Dr. Kevin Conners

So you do telemedicine so people don’t have to fly to California?

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Oh, yeah. Depending on the state and depending on what they need, we often work with physicians all over the country. We do a lot of that. For people who it’s difficult to come to us, if they have a physician who’s interested, we work with a lot of functional medicine doctors just because we’ve been doing this medicine for 35 years now. So we have a lot of different tools. I guess that’s what it is, that we work with a lot of very good practitioners who are really are astute at treating Lyme disease or people who are treating chronic fatigue and mold illness. Because we’ve been doing all of these things for a long time, we can sometimes help their physician put it in the right order for them and begin to work through the process. Unfortunately, by the time I see people, the easy answers have been tried. It’s a question of putting together a little piece from here and a little piece from there, rather than what we all love is when someone comes in and it’s just, oh, we’ll treat your Lyme and you’re going to be better, or we’ll treat your Epstein Bar. That thing usually has been done, and so they need a little bit more juggling, if you would, of different approaches at different times in their process.

We work with people from literally all over the world. It’s just an honor and a privilege to help people find their way because it’s an exploration. I think what people have to understand is when you have what we call the chronic complex illness, it’s complex, and it often takes multiple steps and learning. I’m constantly learning. I think that’s the most important thing. Patients teach me a lot. I think in this day and age, patients with their ability to be on to Google things, as long as they check back with their doctors, I think it’s important because you’ll learn a lot from Dr. Google, but there’s a lot of garbage out there, too. It’s good to filter it with some people who’ve been around a while before you go off and just try that thing that cured somebody’s uncle.

Dr. Kevin Conners

Right, I hear you. Well, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it. It was complex and a bit esoteric, but that’s what we need. We need that. It’s a complex issue when you have chronic disease and you need to dig to these deeper things that not very many doctors are talking about.

Dr. Eric D Gordon

Thank you. It’s been a pleasure, and I always appreciate your work, and I really appreciate how much you’re getting out the information. So thank you so much, Dr. Conners.

Dr. Kevin Conners

All right. Thank you, Dr. Gordon. Bye-bye.

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