This week we have a conversation between Dr. Conners and Dr. David Bilstrom, who is an expert in functional medicine and autoimmune diseases. Dr. Bilstrom shares insights into his journey from traditional medicine to functional medicine, driven by a desire to find effective treatments with minimal side effects. He emphasizes the importance of addressing underlying causes of autoimmune diseases, such as infections, vitamin deficiencies, hormonal imbalances, and gut health. Dr. Bilstrom highlights the significance of optimizing the intestinal microbiome, fixing vitamin D receptor resistance, and utilizing treatments like low-dose naltrexone to rebalance the immune system and promote overall wellness.
Throughout the discussion, Dr. Bilstrom stresses the body’s innate ability to move towards healing and wellness when obstacles are removed. He recommends creating a calm environment, shifting towards real, whole foods, and addressing lifestyle factors like stress management and proper nutrition. With a mission to revolutionize the treatment of autoimmune diseases globally, Dr. Bilstrom aims to spread awareness about functional medicine principles and empower individuals to take charge of their health by addressing root causes and utilizing natural, effective interventions
Tune in to learn:
- Discussion on the sensitivity of spinal cord injury patients to medications and the search for alternative treatments with fewer side effects.
- Dr. B’s transition from conventional medicine to exploring acupuncture and its benefits for patients with complex medical issues.
- The early adoption of acupuncture in a medical center in Charlotte, leading to its success in treating difficult cases.
- Dr. B’s journey into integrated medicine, including nutritional therapy, herbal therapy, energy medicine, and manual therapy, motivated by his son’s health issues.
- The concept of functional medicine focusing on identifying and treating the root causes of health issues.
- The prevalence of autoimmune diseases, particularly among women, and the importance of personalized treatment.
- The role of environmental toxins, gut health, and hormone imbalances in autoimmune diseases and cancer.
- The significance of addressing estrogen dominance, particularly in women, to prevent autoimmune diseases and cancer.
- The comprehensive approach to diagnosing and treating autoimmune diseases, including specific blood work, hormone analysis, and gut health assessments.
- The importance of addressing gut health, including the use of butyrate and probiotics, to improve overall health and treat various conditions.
- The impact of infections, vitamin D receptor resistance, and diet on autoimmune diseases and chronic health issues.
- The overarching goal of creating calm in the body and removing barriers to wellness, emphasizing the body’s natural inclination towards health.
- Dr. B’s mission to change the approach to treating autoimmune diseases worldwide and the translation of his work into French to reach a broader audience.
About Dr. David Bilstrom
David Bilstrom, MD, is an author, international speaker and distinguished member of the American Academy of Integrative Medicine and American Academy of Medical Acupuncture. He is an advanced fellow in anti-aging, regenerative, and functional medicine, and holds quadruple board certification in Functional and Regenerative Medicine, Integrative Medicine, Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation, and Medical Acupuncture.
As the Director of the International Autoimmune Institute & Bingham Memorial Center for Functional Medicine, Dr. Bilstrom is affiliated with the first medical center in the country associated with a teaching hospital to treat all types of autoimmune diseases. The center is the first in the nation to utilize nature and its healing properties as a fundamental component of a wellness program.
Dr. Bilstrom is passionate about educating individuals and medical professionals on the importance of reversing and preventing autoimmune diseases using the fundamentals of Functional Medicine. Instead of relying solely on symptom-controlled medications that may lead to additional health complications.
Dr. Bilstrom is the author of the book, “The Nurse Practitioners’ Guide to Autoimmune Medicine, Preventing and Reversing All Autoimmunity.” He has also developed a course called “The Autoimmune Paradigm, an Experts Program,” which is available to all clinicians. He is also a sought-after speaker and has lectured on five continents.
In 2018, Dr. Bilstrom declared and named a positive ANA as Bilstrom’s Nuclearitis, because by definition an antinuclear antibody is antibodies being produced by a confused immune system, attacking a person’s nuclear material (DNA). Named in 2018 and first published in 2020, in the textbook Advanced Therapeutics in Pain Medicine, Chapter 6: Managing Pain in the Presence of Autoimmune Disease.
Stay tuned for Episode 46 (you can see all episodes on the Conners Clinic Live page!)
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Transcript
Dr. Kevin Conners
Hello, everybody. This is Dr. Conners. Welcome to another episode of Conners Clinic Live. We have a great guest today. Dr. B has been working with a functional medicine/ integrative medicine approach to autoimmune disease for a long time. He graduated some 30 years ago and has been in practice.
I’m going to let you fill in the gaps of that. I guess I’m interested in how you got into what you’re doing because most people that graduate with a medical degree are pushing pharmaceuticals. What changed in your life?
Dr. David Bilstrom
One of the first things, my original area of specialty was physical medicine and rehab. My subspecialty was spinal cord injury, so everybody who was paralyzed from the neck down or waist down, and had very complex medical issues involving every body part. But they were very sensitive to medications. If you were using a medication for something like spasticity or pain, nerve pain or bowel or bladder issues, we might get to the dose of the medicine that was started helping them. But then the side effects became so problematic, we had to stop it and try something different, and you can run out of medications. Very simple things that most able-bodied people wouldn’t think twice about using, like just something for nasal congestion, actually for that population, could kill them. When we would run out of options, I thought, geez, wouldn’t it be lovely if there was something out there that could help these people? Wouldn’t it be fantastic if it didn’t have any side effects?
Dr. Kevin Conners
Is that common with people with spinal cord injuries to be hypersensitive to medications? Is it because they had so much medication that their liver is so congested?
Dr. David Bilstrom
Well, it’s more inherent in the disruption of the nervous system and all these feedback loops that are lost, so what an able-bodied person might see as a very small side effect, like constipation – if they get constipated, the autonomic nervous system kicks in, and they could actually stroke out. A little thing for us would be a big thing for them. Thus, the rehab docs end up becoming the primary care physicians because we had to have this intimate knowledge of the spinal cord injury to take care about anything. But that’s where I found acupuncture, and I ended up training out of UCLA, became board-certified in acupuncture, thinking this will be one extra thing we/I have to offer. As far as I can tell, there’s no side effects.
Well, if you need to know about spinal cord injury to be their primary care docs, maybe you need to know spinal cord injury to be their acupuncturist as well. Where I was at back then in the early ’90s, there weren’t any acupuncturists anyway. Also I worked at a really large medical center in Charlotte where we had over 200 rehabilitation beds for everything you can imagine, not just spinal cord injury, but traumatic brain injury, rheumatoid arthritis, strokes, pediatrics, all this stuff. We were the place that people got sent when nobody else could help them. But if we couldn’t help them, we had no place to send them. So all my partners were so excited that we’d have something else to offer them. Pretty much right from the get-go, I got all the worst of the worst people that couldn’t get help, and unbelievably, it worked so great! So great to the point where —
Dr. Kevin Conners
I was really fascinated that back in the ’90s, you had a clinic group that was open-minded enough to let you do acupuncture. That in itself is a miracle.
Dr. David Bilstrom
You’re very astute, Kevin, because we had only so many dollars every year to spend, and so many days away from the office for continuing medical education. When I presented this – to go to UCLA and train, they said “Well, I’ll give you the days off, but you can’t use your CME money for it. You have to pay for yourself.” I said OK, OK. But then it worked so well, almost right away, I was seeing 100 patients a week. Well, of course, two years after I started, one of my really good friends and one of my partners decided he wanted to do it, too. Well, then they had seen how great it was, and they let him use CME money for it. They said: Oh, yeah, okay. I probably should have figured – a UCLA course, it would be worthwhile anyway. But then that got me on this whole journey of wondering what else is out there that, of course, I didn’t learn in my traditional allopathic medical training that could help these folks and that had not nearly the side effects, or no side effects, compared to pharmaceutical agents. It’s been about a 30-year journey to learn all this stuff.
From there, I got into integrated medicine, whether it was nutritional therapy, herbal therapy, energy medicine, manual therapy, all this. Then having known all this, my son, at about three or four years of age, had terrible allergies – terrible asthma. There was no kid I couldn’t make their asthma go away with acupuncture. I thought: This will be a piece of cake. So the asthma went away, but his darn allergies were so stubborn. We took him every place. Ultimately, nobody could help him. He was totally miserable, and I said; Well, I’m going to have to figure this out myself. That’s where I discovered functional medicine, which basically is answering the question of, so why do people get health issues? If you can figure out why somebody’s got a health issue, you’re in a good position to reverse the process and make it go away. Sure enough, his went away, and I thought: I like this stuff!
I kept seeing more and more people, especially women, coming in with autoimmune disease, where the immune system has become confused and starts attacking our own body parts, which is really crazy.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Were you in private practice by that time?
Dr. David Bilstrom
By that time, I was, yeah. I was running a big integrative medicine clinic outside of Chicago, with all the different integrative practitioners. To me, it was fascinating, this functional medicine, because in acupuncture, you really have to get at the central mechanism that is driving not only their primary complaint, but because it’s their central mechanism, you’re put a position to make everything get better at the same time.
This is where acupuncture — you can’t do the same acupuncture treatment for everybody that has low back pain because everybody with low back pain is a different individual. You’ve got to make it special for each individual, the very best in individualized care. Functional medicine is very much the same. You may have 100 people with rheumatoid arthritis — 100 kids with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, for example. But you have to treat each one individually. It’s really the best in personalized medicine. By addressing the big central mechanisms of why they have their main thing, you’re putting on a position to fix everything else at the same time.
Here you have this autoimmune disease, you’re attacking a certain body part, say rheumatoid arthritis of the joints, ulcerative colitis, Crohn’s, gut, multiple sclerosis of brain. Neurologic ones will drive seizures, migraine headaches, neuropathies, all this stuff. Actually, 70% of all autism is one particular autoimmune disease, but by getting at the central mechanism, you helped stop the attacking of the body part, and their autoimmune disease stops progressing, goes backwards, and ideally, if everything works well, you get rid of it. You’re also taking care of all the other things that the why is doing. Take memory and concentration issues. They get better. Here’s depression and anxiety. It gets better. Here’s their constipation, diarrhea. It gets better. Here’s their fibromyalgia. It gets better – because you’re really getting at these central mechanisms that then put the mind in position to really do what it’s supposed to do, which is fix itself.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Well, and you and I both know, and anybody who’s listening to this would agree, that the general practice of medicine dealing with autoimmune disease is just basically nonexistent as far as helping these people, except getting them on some biological drug or something like that.
You mentioned rheumatoid arthritis. Let’s use that as an example. If you had a rheumatoid arthritis patient come to your clinic, what would a workup look like?
Dr. David Bilstrom
That’s another reason why I think it speaks to a lot of people, because when people are used to working in the Western traditional allopathic model, well, you do testing. Okay, so a person has an issue so let’s do some testing. The testing that we would do is much more specific for what drives chronic disease. You might do blood work. Go to a lab, have your blood work done. Now, also because we know what causes the disruption of the immune system, and I think with your interest in cancer, it’s very important for people to know that the immune system, we now know, is an integral part of every chronic disease.
The immune system, as I explain to patients, is a great example of how the body likes balance. You don’t want to be too high, too low in anything. Blood pressure, blood sugar, there’s always a sweet spot right in the middle. In the immune system, when you lose that set point, you actually move away from it up and down at the same time. So the overactive, up-regulated immune system issues are things like autoimmune disease, but also, like my son, allergies, asthma, and then eczema. The under-active immune system things are infections and cancer. When somebody presents with an up-regulated issue, like an autoimmune disease like rheumatoid arthritis, for example, we say: Oh, you lost your set point. Your immune system moves up and down. We know why that is, but it’s so important for us to address why and fix it, because if we don’t, your autoimmune disease will just get worse and worse over time. But also you’re going to get another autoimmune disease on top of your first, second, third, and fourth.
I can’t tell you how many women in their 20s already, by the time we see them, have five autoimmune diseases. But also, they have a huge increased risk of cancer. So the things that cause this disruption in the immune system are vitamin deficiencies, hormone imbalances and deficiencies, the stress hormone cortisol has become disrupted. Infections – we call them the hidden infections, not infections that tend to cause obvious symptoms with an increased fever, increased temp and all this. They drive chronic disease such as Epstein-Barr virus, herpes virus, these guys. Environmental toxins love to throw off the immune system.
And then the gut – the gut’s the real big central mechanism driving basically all these different things that cause disruption in the immune system. A really big thing that we tend to find that gets missed by people is the infections that are hidden, but also for women, and this is one reason why they believe that 80% of people that get autoimmune disease is one particular hormone imbalance called estrogen dominance, where women get too much estrogen compared progesterone. It is super common. When you look at everything, it probably accounts for almost 90% of the reason why women die. Traditionally, it will show up as all the hormonal menstrual things, things like bad flows, bad cramps, PMS, ovarian cysts, breast cysts, fibroids and endometriosis. But also because estrogen revs and progesterone calms, it will also show up as excessive worry, anxiety, panic attacks and insomnia. So whenever a women has any hormonal menstrual things, you think: Oh, you have estrogen dominance. This is a huge driver of autoimmune disease and cancer risk. So women that have estrogen dominance before menopause have a 5.4 times greater risk of getting breast cancer before menopause. Not just double the risk, not three times the risk, but 5.4 times the risk and a 10 times greater risk of getting malignant cancers their entire life.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Do you attribute that mainly to the xenoestrogens in the environment that people are exposed to, or the estrogen disruptors? What are you mainly attributing that to?
Dr. David Bilstrom
That’s part of that environmental toxicity thing, yeah. But also because the gut becomes disrupted, women can’t clear old toxic estrogens from their system, including old toxic xenoestrogens. So old toxic estrogens rise – estradiol and estrone, but then when cortisol, the stress hormone, gets thrown off because of potential toxicity, including the estrogen disruptors and all this, but other things like infections cause stress, vitamin deficiencies cause stress. Cortisol gets kicked up into the stress mode – this fight or flight mode. The first hormone that gets depleted when this happens is progesterone. So you’ve got this combination of things that drive up estrogen, a bunch of stuff that drives down progesterone, and here’s this estrogen dominance.
To your point, in our traditional system, especially when it comes to the hormonal menstrual things, the thing that women are given is birth control pills. Well, if you have terrible flows, bad cramps, PMS, or ovarian cysts, they may just give you birth control pills. But they’re estrogen-based, and they make the estrogen dominance worse. What we’re trying to do as well, for women that have these autoimmune diseases, the estrogen dominance is always part of it. Let’s fix this as well as these other things. You don’t need your autoimmune disease.
You also don’t need cancer. We’re trying to teach people – mothers, for example, that see this in their daughters. Let’s fix it and get rid of all the hormonal menstrual stuff, which would be lovely. So many young women, for example, have panic attacks, anxiety, all this brain stuff, and oh my goodness, the suicide rate has gone up so high. Let’s fix it now, and all those things get better. But then we’re really doing our due diligence to protect you from autoimmune disease and cancer at the same time.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Yeah, huge issue, right? Big. And now you see the hormone issues that we have with men as well, driving different cancers and driving different disorders and emotional problems and just throwing off the sympathetic/parasympathetic balance.
When a person comes in your office, what testing do you look at first?
Dr. David Bilstrom
Oh, thank you. I’m sorry, I got on a little bit of a tangent there.
Dr. Kevin Conners
No, no, no. Very good tangent!
Dr. David Bilstrom
Back to the blood work… we look at specific vitamins and minerals that might be low. We look really closely at these hormones, including estrogen, progesterone, even testosterone. The typical ones would be DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone, estradiol, estrone and progesterone. Of course, the thyroid, a close look at thyroid, a close look at insulin and blood sugar. We might do a saliva test for cortisol. That’s the gold standard testing for cortisol. Blood testing for cortisol is totally inaccurate. Then, because it’s got such a central mechanism, we ask people to do a digestive stool analysis to get a really good sense of what’s going on with the gut. Things like the good bacterial numbers, the warriors fighting your battles for you, bad bacteria that might be in your gut creating issues like infections, inflammation markers that will tell us that if you’re moving towards new disease like colon cancer, ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease. We want to reel that in before you get there. And then a really big one is the good bacteria in the gut makes so many important things. They’re the biggest hormone producers in the body, the good bacteria. They make these things called short-chain fatty acids.
A really big one is called butyrate. Butyrate is uber important to keep away inflammation of the gut, keep away colon cancer, this stuff. But butyrate, almost working exclusively through epigenetics, where it’ll turn off bad genes in our cells, turn on good genes in our cells, and the DNA tells the cells what to do, the genes do. It prevents cancer five different ways. It actually can treat cancer five different ways. It’s great for the brain. It’s great to keep away obesity and reverse obesity. It helps kids with cystic fibrosis, where they’re basically drowning on their own secretions. It helps the brain recover after an ischemic stroke. Again, it’s just another good example of how these good bacteria in the gut make such important things, including this butyrate, which we use an absolute ton because it’s so important to getting not only the gut healthy, but really getting the body to get healthy in general.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Back in the day, I remember in functional medicine, we used to talk about that everything starts in the gut. Well, now we know everything doesn’t start in the gut, but you have to heal the gut. Almost everybody that comes in with a health problem also has a gut issue. Dealing with the body’s ability to make butyric acid either with insoluble fibers, or now you could just use butyric acid straight. It’s just a game changer for healing the gut. Now, all the tests that you just talked about for somebody who isn’t familiar with functional medicine… you probably get people still coming into your office that say: Oh, I’ve been to the doctor. I’ve had a ton of tests. Everything is normal. They can’t figure it out. Well, they’re not doing any of the tests that you spoke of. They’re maybe taking a TSH and a T3 or something and calling that a thyroid panel. These are functional medicine tests. If you’re going to a functional medicine specialist that knows how to look at these tests. I’ve had people come in and have actually had good testing done, and then the naturopath that maybe ran the test didn’t understand them themselves, so never gave the person correct advice on how to deal with the things that were positive on the test.
Dr. David Bilstrom
That’s so true because you have to know the test to run, but you also really have to know how to interpret the test results. Absolutely.
Dr. Kevin Conners
You’re really speaking to the choir as far as: There’s always a cause. With every disease, it’s not something like genetically you inherited, 99% of the time. There’s a cause, maybe something environmental, and it is something that’s disrupted in your metabolic pathways that needs to be uncovered. You’re basically talking about digging to find that cause, and usually there’s multiple causes, and treating those things. I heard you say when you’re treating autoimmune disease, you’re basically just cleaning up all this other stuff on the patient. Lots of times you can just put the autoimmune disease in remission.
Dr. David Bilstrom
That’s right.
Dr. Kevin Conners
You talked about hormonal issues with women and such. When you’re talking about rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, things like that? What are some common things that you find with those?
Dr. David Bilstrom
To your point also is that there are a lot of people out there who are much more knowledgeable nowadays than they used to be as far as some of these functional medicine principles. But there are some things that I tend to find always get missed. One is infections. People always miss that infections are really part of all chronic disease. Things like Epstein-Barr virus, herpes virus 6, Coxsackie virus, mycoplasma, a whole bunch in the gut, including some of the data out there about Epstein-Barr virus and herpes virus 6 driving childhood leukemias, for example. They talk about cancer being the flip side of the same coin in this autoimmune disease. They miss the infections. They miss how to get rid of them.
Another thing that gets mixed is the vitamin D receptors in the gut become resistant to vitamin D. People know how important vitamin D is, including what we share with women is if a woman’s vitamin D is above 60, she’s automatically decreased her risk of getting breast cancer by 82%. It’s so great for the immune system, but also keep away autoimmune disease. If a woman’s vitamin D is above 50 during pregnancy, she automatically decreases the risk of her child ever getting multiple sclerosis by 50%. Every cell in the body has receptors for the things that the cell needs to function so that that thing can attach, tell the cell what to do, go into the cell and tell the cell what to do. But these vitamin D receptors, particularly the ones in the gut, can become resistant to vitamin D, and that is a domino effect of terrible stuff. When you fix it, it’s a whole domino effect of all this great stuff, including by optimizing the intestinal microbiome, and you can get rid of pretty much any autoimmune disease. It’s been called the nuclear weapon against diabetes and metabolic syndrome. If you fix the intestinal microbiome this way, Harvard General Psychiatry a year ago says: Wow, you can treat major depressive disorder with this.
The triad that we call the foundational triad to fix this is daily vitamin D, daily probiotic, those two most people know about. The third one is the use of butyrate. That triad has been shown to fix this vitamin D receptor resistance. Then just this beautiful domino effect of great stuff happens. But to your point, each one of these individually so cool. Like probiotics, you get your benefit from probiotics if you can fix the vitamin D receptor. Probiotics, will help protect people from getting diabetes from BPA, the estrogen disrupter that’s in plastic water bottles. And then the phthalates that are in cosmetic products will drive people to diabetes. But the probiotics actually protect people from that, driving them towards diabetes. So we get a chance to see, these are real big central mechanisms in the body that if you can fix them, you can reverse pretty much anything. Also with the autoimmune disease, we love to use something called low dose naltrexone, which are very teensy, weensy, pixy dust doses with NO side effects. If people look up naltrexone at the high doses that is used for addictions, they’ll see there’s a lot of side effects. But pixie-dust dose, no side effects. It’s an immuno modulator, and it helps you rebalance the immune system. It helps us get rid of those infections and then keep them away. It also gets rid of the up-regulated immune system stuff like allergies, asthma, and autoimmune disease. Then because it works through two really big central mechanisms and inflammation control in general, it’ll help. It’s great for the brain, can take care of any pain problem, and can help people lose weight.
If you can get rid of this inflammation by fixing these two mechanisms, you’re really in a position to turn around any of the chronic health issues.
Dr. Kevin Conners
That’s the key of the vitamin D also as a T-reg stimulator, immune modulator, it calms down a hyperimmune response and can stimulate a hypo-immune response. I think some of the listeners may not understand what the importance of butyrate in healing the gut. I mean, that is the main fuel source for all the epithelial cells that line the gut. You mentioned multiple times about fixing that vitamin D receptor in the gut. That really has to do with helping the gut cells heal. Is that right?
Dr. David Bilstrom
Yeah. It optimizes that intestinal microbiome. You build up all the good guys, get rid of the bad guys. The lining of the gut stops making chemicals that create inflammation. So when you get this disruption in the gut, the lining of the gut actually is making chemicals that create inflammation, like a really big one is called NF kappa beta. It just creates inflammation. Well, if you fix that intestinal microbiome this way, it stops doing that. But then also the lining of the gut starts making proteins called anti-microbial peptides that protect the gut from bad bugs ever rearing their ugly head again.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Yeah. Key things.
What would you say if we’re going to close this out? What would the key factors, if somebody’s listening to this and thinks: Okay, wow, this is a lot to take in… What would be a starting point for a person?
Dr. David Bilstrom
I think one thing to know as a starting point is the body’s natural default mode is always to move towards wellness. We’re not asking the body to do anything that’s not already trying to do. It already knows how to fix your problem. Something’s gotten in the way. If you can get this something out of the way, the body says: Thank you. All right. I’ve been waiting however many years I’ve had this issue. I’ve been waiting to fix this. I’m ready to go now. You always want to create calm. You got to create calm and let cortisol find that calm mode rather than the stress mode. So this is where things like getting out in nature, deep breathing, meditation, all the different ways you can create calm. You got to get rid of these hidden infections. You want to fix the vitamin D receptor resistance, and you want to really shift because the foods that people eat nowadays – you’ve really got to shift away from food-like substances, like the highly processed food-like substances in the fast foods. They’re not even foods. It’s like food-like substances… and eat more of the real food. I have a cute little thing on my desk that says: Organic food – what my grandparents called food.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Exactly! That’s just sad.
Dr. David Bilstrom
It is. That’s a big one. That gets rid of a big block because if you move away from those things and eat the real stuff, then your body thinks:, Oh, alright, I’m in a position to fix this stuff!
Dr. Kevin Conners
Well, Thank you very much for being our guest. Dr. David Bilstrom or Dr. B, as your patients know you as, practicing in Idaho, seeing people from around the country. We’ll have your information for people to contact you, and your website for people to find you, drive some people your way, and just continue to help people.
Before we started recording, you said you’re on a mission to basically change the way that people treat autoimmune disease worldwide. It’s a big mission.
Dr. David Bilstrom
Well, it’s always important to have goals. We are translating some of my stuff into French now, because I’ve been lecturing a lot in North Africa for French speakers there and in France and Belgium. There’s a big need there, just like there is in Canada and United States as well.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Right. Well, thank you for all you do. I know the listeners take little pieces away from all our lectures. There’s a lot of really good little pieces here.
Dr. David Bilstrom
Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. I sure appreciate it.
Dr. Kevin Conners
I’d love to have you again.
Dr. David Bilstrom
It’ll be my pleasure.
Dr. Kevin Conners
Okay. Bye-bye.
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